Is Elizabeth Cantwell LDS?

There is no reliable public information in the provided material confirming that Elizabeth R. Cantwell is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, commonly called the LDS Church. Her religious affiliation should therefore be treated as unknown rather than assumed.

Elizabeth Cantwell became the 17th president and newest Aggie of Utah State University in August 2023. During her April 12, 2024, investiture, Paul V. Johnson, a General Authority Seventy of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and member of the Utah Board of Education, offered the opening invocation, but his participation does not establish Cantwell’s personal religious affiliation.

What is publicly documented about Elizabeth Cantwell?

Elizabeth R. Cantwell brought dynamic leadership to Utah State University after assuming the presidency in August 2023. Her vision drove record growth in the university's research enterprise, increased support for student scholarships, and the implementation of a new model for fiscal sustainability and operational modernization.

She also played a pivotal role in securing USU's transformative membership in the new Pac-12 athletics conference. Dr. Cantwell's distinguished career included leadership positions at the University of Arizona, Arizona State University, and renowned national laboratories, including Lawrence Livermore, Oak Ridge, and Los Alamos.

She was a respected voice in national science and technology, serving on the National Academies' Committee on NASA Critical Workforce, Technology & Infrastructure, co-chairing the Aeronautics and Space Engineering Board, and as a fellow of the American Association for the Advancement of Science.

Why Utah State University is sometimes associated with the LDS Church

Utah State University was founded in 1888 (as the Agricultural College of Utah) under the Morrill Land-Grant Colleges Act. Two years later, the infrastructure was set up and our first president, Jeremiah W. Sanborn, took the helm of the institution.

Since then, the university has fulfilled its mission to make quality education accessible throughout the state, thanks to the guidance of our fantastic leaders. Utah State University is a public land-grant institution, and its history and governance should not be confused with the personal religious affiliation of any individual president.

The university’s history includes leaders whose careers involved institutions connected with the Latter-day Saint tradition. Joseph M. Tanner served as an education commissioner in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, while several presidents studied or worked at Brigham Young University or Brigham Young College. These historical connections do not demonstrate that Elizabeth Cantwell is LDS.

What happened at Cantwell’s investiture?

On April 12, Utah State University hosted an investiture for university President Elizabeth R. Cantwell. Held in the Newel & Jean Daines Concert Hall, the ceremony was broadcast over AggieCast and viewed from campuses across the state.

The event began with a formal procession led by the USU Scotsman Pipe & Drum Corps. During this time, faculty, leaders, state officials and speakers proceeded through the auditorium wearing their doctoral regalia.

Laurens H. Smith, USU’s provost and chief academic officer, was the master of ceremonies. “It is with great pleasure and gratitude that I send a warm welcome to the investiture,” Smith said. “Our esteemed guests are USU students, faculty, staff, alumni and members of our community gathered here today.”

Grace Olsen, a junior studying vocal performance, sang the National Anthem. Paul V. Johnson, a General Authority Seventy of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and member of the Utah Board of Education, offered the opening invocation.

Jacey Skinner addressed the group as chair of the Utah State Board of Trustees. “We are thrilled to have each of you here with us today as we celebrate the opening of the next chapter of Utah State history,” Skinner said.

Skinner said being an Aggie was about looking for solutions to problems and improving the world. “We take care of those around us, and we make our communities, our state, our nation and the world a better place,” Skinner said. “No matter what physical form an Aggie might take as a mascot, what an Aggie is, is someone who meets the moment.”

Gov. Spencer J. Cox spoke next, covering his journey as a Utah State Aggie. He said proper education makes people not only critical thinkers and problem solvers who know their Shakespeare and trigonometry but also more virtuous, honest and loving.

“There is a question over whether we are still seeking truth or we have discovered truth and are going to mandate that to everyone that opens these doors,” Cox said. “Is there still room for diversity of opinion in the cause of higher education? Are we still teaching, or do we care about character at all?”

Cox said Utah State is very lucky to have President Cantwell. “It was then I knew that we had the woman for the moment,” Cox said. “The president that we desperately need at this time and in this place, right here at Utah State University, to make sure that the very best of our history stays - the things that make us Utahns, the things that make us Aggies - that we keep all of those and we innovate.”

“We find the solutions to the future. We can have both of those things, and we can have them because we have President Cantwell,” Cox said.

After Cox’s remarks, the Red Spirit Singers of the Ute Indian Tribe performed a traditional honor song. Abraham Rodriguez, USUSA President, addressed the audience with USU’s mission and vision of serving communities through access, excellence and belonging for all faculty, staff and students.

Geoffrey T. Landward, commissioner of the Utah System of Higher Education, shared some remarks. “The board’s search for Utah State University’s next president was highly competitive, featuring many exceptional candidates, a credit to the caliber of this institution,” Landward said.

“President Cantwell became the clear choice throughout the process and was chosen to lead the as the 17th president and newest Aggie,” Landward said. “This institution stands alone in the Utah System of Higher Education. It is a daunting responsibility.”

“But I am certain, President Cantwell, that your fierce intelligence, strong leadership and dedication to service not only to our students but also to the faculty, staff and broader communities will ensure your success and the success of USU,” Landward said.

Javier Chavez Jr., a Utah Board of Higher Education member, gave some thoughts on the investiture charge. “You were selected from a number of highly qualified candidates from across the nation,” Chavez Jr. said. “I have every confidence that you possess the essential qualities it takes to be a successful college president in this great state.”

Cantwell received her presidential medallion to the tune of “Presidential Fanfare.” The piece, which was commissioned for the investiture, was performed by the USU Wind Orchestra and directed by composer Thomas P. Rohrer, who also serves as director of bands.

Cantwell opened her address by thanking the musicians for their performance and the audience for attending. She also thanked the board for her position and her family for supporting her in her career.

References to faith and education in Cantwell’s address

Cantwell then discussed challenges facing higher education. “I just want to give you a sense of how we at USU are ready to meet this moment,” Cantwell said.

“Change is upon us, and those of you who know me know that my charge to people who work with me in an institution like this is we will embrace change,” Cantwell said. “We will own the future rather than be owned by it.”

“We are a public higher education institution that is, in fact, poised to play an even more critical role in the future,” Cantwell said. “We will remain as we always have been: a key driver of innovation, of social mobility and societal well-being.”

She addressed the university’s roots as a land-grant institution, discussing the importance of making education accessible to all and Utah State’s role in this effort. She shared the history of the Morrill Land Grant Act of 1862, which established USU and focused on agricultural and mechanical sciences.

“The act democratized education by establishing institutions in the nation’s frontier,” Cantwell said. “We have been on the frontier ever since. We are at the frontier of research, we are at the frontier of space exploration, of energy, and of course, we remain at the frontier of agriculture.”

“The Land Grant Act and its subsequent generations transformed the higher education landscape in the US, while its people were transforming our physical landscape,” Cantwell said. “That is the tradition that we inherit, and we carry it forward.”

Cantwell said the act was an “investment in the future.” “Despite the uncertainties of the Civil War, and the disruptive forces of industrialization, this act of faith in education laid the groundwork for a system that enabled our nation to meet and surmount the challenges of that time,” Cantwell said.

“Today, as we navigate the dawn of the 21st century, we find ourselves amid a similar period of profound change,” Cantwell said.

Even though faith in university education can be dwindling, Cantwell said, Utah State is primed to help its students and adapt to meet tomorrow’s needs.

“Our elite institutions may be the envy of the world, but too many Americans now see higher education not as a great leveler, but as an instrument of inequality,” Cantwell said. “Dragging the haves further from the have nots.”

“In many ways, the American dream to some seems increasingly out of reach, particularly for communities cut off from educational opportunities,” Cantwell said. “Once again, we find ourselves a nation fairly deeply divided.”

“The very good news, and I believe this with all my heart, is that Utah State University is fully capable of meeting these challenges head on,” Cantwell said. “Utah State University was built for moments like this.”

Cantwell said there are many initiatives USU is taking to help meet the challenges of modern times, including space exploration, dual-enrollment measures for high schoolers and creating programs such as the Heravi Peace Institute.

After Cantwell closed her address, the USU Chorale performed the alma mater song. The Rev. Jason Samuel of St. John’s Episcopal Church offered a benediction, and the Scotsman Pipe and Drum Corps led a recessional of the participants.

Why the investiture does not prove Cantwell’s religion

The presence of a Latter-day Saint religious leader at a university ceremony does not show that the university president shares that person’s faith. Likewise, references to education, service, character, community, or faith in a public speech do not by themselves identify a person’s denomination.

The available information documents Cantwell’s professional background, university leadership, public remarks, and participation in institutional events. It does not state that she belongs to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, identify her as LDS, or provide a personal declaration of membership.

Elizabeth Cantwell’s professional background

Before becoming president of Utah State University, Cantwell held leadership positions at the University of Arizona, Arizona State University, and renowned national laboratories, including Lawrence Livermore, Oak Ridge, and Los Alamos.

She also served on the National Academies' Committee on NASA Critical Workforce, Technology & Infrastructure, co-chaired the Aeronautics and Space Engineering Board, and became a fellow of the American Association for the Advancement of Science.

Her public profile is primarily associated with science, technology, research administration, higher education, and institutional leadership. Those biographical details do not establish an LDS affiliation.

Utah State presidents before Cantwell

The university’s presidential history helps explain why questions about religion can arise around Utah State, but the affiliations and experiences of earlier presidents should not be attributed to Cantwell.

Noelle E. Cockett

Noelle E. Cockett began her official tenure as the 16th president - and first woman to take the role - of Utah State University in January 2017. President Cockett previously served USU as executive vice president and provost, vice president for Extension, dean of the College of Agriculture and Applied Sciences, and director of the Utah Agriculture Experiment Station.

She has built a distinguished career in sheep genomics research and continues to maintain an active research program. As president, she prioritized the university’s mission of learning, discovery, and engagement, including promoting inclusivity and respect on campus and increasing diversity.

Her leadership resulted in USU becoming an R1 Carnegie-recognized institution, plus the creation of the College of Veterinary Medicine, the Inclusion Center, the Latinx Cultural Center, and the Division for Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion.

Stan L. Albrecht

Stan L. Albrecht began his teaching career at Utah State University before he returned to his alma mater, Brigham Young University. At BYU, he held various positions, including department head, dean, academic vice president, and associate provost.

After working in research and as the associate director at the University of Florida's College of Medicine, he returned to USU - first as the dean of the College of Humanities and Social Sciences, then as provost for three years before assuming the role of president.

Albrecht took office and facilitated improvements to all of USU’s Statewide Campuses - including the merger with the College of Eastern Utah (now USU Eastern). He successfully implemented the first university-wide fundraising campaign which brought in more than $500 million.

He was also instrumental in the Aggies joining the Mountain West Conference and the creation of the Caine College of the Arts.

Kermit L. Hall

Academics and recruitment were key components of Kermit Hall’s presidency at Utah State. He worked to lower the faculty-student ratio, attract and retain the best instructors, and conducted the cheekily named “Road Scholars” faculty trip each year in which instructors would tour the state to meet with prospective students.

These efforts paid off with a substantial increase in enrollments - particularly in first year students. Originally from Akron, Ohio, Hall studied constitutional history, earning his undergraduate degree from the University of Akron, his master’s from Syracuse University, his Ph.D. from the University of Minnesota, and a law degree from Yale University.

After four years at USU, Hall became president of the State University of New York (SUNY) in Albany.

George H. Emert

Before he moved to Utah, George Emert taught at the University of Arkansas and was later the executive president at Alabama’s land-grant Auburn University. His presidency at Utah State started out with typing a list of 40 goals he wanted to accomplish before he stepped down.

By the time he was ready to go back to teaching, only one goal was left unfinished - establishing a university-wide fundraising campaign. But his other efforts were no small feats: the amount of scholarships awarded quadrupled, endowments grew tenfold, and the institution’s contracts and grants nearly doubled.

The Tennessee-native was also a champion of intercollegiate athletics and established Alumni Association chapters in each of Utah’s 29 counties, plus five additional states and four countries.

Stanford Cazier

Unlike many of his predecessors, Stanford Cazier had not studied agriculture or agriculture-related disciplines prior to becoming president of the university. But this didn’t hold him back.

The former history department head was known for engaging and animated lectures, particularly of the Civil War. Under his leadership, enrollment continued to grow, and new buildings, degrees, and programs were built to meet demands.

He had been an assistant to President Glen Taggart before helming Chico State College - where he was instrumental in the school’s absorption into the California State University system. He returned to USU in 1979 and remained a professor for five years after stepping down as president (though he continued to occasionally teach classes as a professor emeritus).

Glen L. Taggart

Born in Lewiston, just a few miles north of the university, Glen L. Taggart got his undergraduate degree at USU before he worked as a rural sociologist for the U.S. Bureau of Agricultural Economics and continued to get his doctorate from University of Wisconsin.

He had also worked for the U.S. Department of Agriculture and traveled the world to 38 countries - this experience would lend itself to his time as university president, as international programs were an important aspect of his leadership.

His presidency was remarkable for his decision to decentralize budgets and programming, giving deans and department heads more control over their areas. He was also known for diplomacy with students, despite the era’s multiple protests and civil unrest.

Daryl Chase

Utah State experienced another time of rapid growth under Daryl Chase’s leadership. During this time, the school’s name changed from the Utah State Agricultural College to the Utah State University of Agriculture and Applied Sciences (which was shortened rather quickly to its current form).

Enrollment increased by 250%, the international student population grew by more than 800%, faculty positions doubled, and the number of graduate (especially doctoral) degrees awarded exploded.

In his final year as president, the beginnings of Utah State’s current statewide campuses took root with centers in Roosevelt and Moab opening. Chase, who’d modestly claimed he expected to last only one year in the role, attributed his success to those around him and the spirit of collaboration at the institution.

H. Aldous Dixon

Prior to helming Utah State Agricultural College, H. Aldous Dixon was president of Weber College. Dixon was a lifelong promoter and practitioner of teamwork, even going so far as to designate the university as a partner of the common welfare in his inaugural address.

This ideology of community and academic partnership has been a tenet of the institution’s mission ever since. He only led the institution for one year before he resigned to serve in the U.S. House of Representatives, where he was one of the congressmen in support of the Civil Rights Acts of 1957 and 1960.

Louis L. Madsen

Louis L. Madsen made a name for himself in the world of animal husbandry and for being warm, patient, and well loved by the student body.

Under his leadership, the Agricultural College saw a new union building, a reinvigorated athletic program - which had been suspended during the World Wars - and the beginning of a new agricultural science building. In his first year, the university established its first international program in Iran.

He clashed with the governor and university’s board of trustees and was ultimately fired, which led to a caravan of students protesting the decision at the state capitol.

Franklin S. Harris

Under President E.G. Peterson, Utah State nearly doubled in size. And following World War II, enrollments were increasing.

This left former BYU President Franklin S. Harris with the task of remodeling and funding new buildings to house the growing student population as the university’s reach expanded. Similarly, Harris became one of the first presidents to travel abroad in his duties, including to Greece and Syria.

He left the university to work on President Harry S. Truman’s Point IV program, establishing an exchange of agricultural knowledge - and later, students - with Iran that continued for decades.

Elmer George “E.G.” Peterson

The Influenza Pandemic of 1918. World Wars I and II. The Great Depression. A name change from Agricultural College of Utah (UAC) to Utah State Agricultural College (USAC). The birth of Aggie Ice Cream.

Elmer George “E.G.” Peterson was not only the longest presiding president of the institution (29 years), but also led during some of the most infamous points in history.

The Plain City-native was also the youngest president to take the helm of the university - both in USU history and throughout the country at the time - when he was only 34 years old. The university saw growth in all divisions, including doubling in campus size.

He returned to the university as interim president for six months in 1953.

John A. Widtsoe

Originally from Norway, John A. Widtsoe immigrated to Logan, Utah, where he attended the Brigham Young College before continuing his education at Harvard.

He returned to Cache Valley to teach at Utah State (then the Agricultural College) and direct the Agricultural Experiment Station. He also helped further early Extension efforts through his work with farmers to better utilize water and irrigation techniques in the state.

While a professor at Brigham Young University, he was a key player in the founding of the College of Biology and Agriculture. He returned to Logan to become president of the Agricultural College and was extremely popular among students.

William J. Kerr

William J. Kerr was born in Richmond, Utah - just a few miles north of the Logan campus where he’d serve as president.

Prior to taking office at Utah State, Kerr was the first official president of Brigham Young College in Logan (up to his tenure, the head of the college was referred to as the principal).

Kerr was most known for expanding the academic offerings at UAC (as USU was known), well beyond its agricultural roots as he sought to merge the college with the University of Utah.

However, legislators limited subjects to be taught to agriculture, mechanic arts, and home economics to avoid a merger as well as competition with the programs at the University of Utah. He left USU after deciding to lead the land-grant Oregon Agricultural College.

Joseph “Jay” M. Tanner

Joseph M. Tanner grew up in rural Payson, Utah, but had long appreciated and advocated for furthering education. In fact, after graduating from Brigham Young University in Provo (then the Brigham Young Academy), he stayed on for six years teaching math.

He eventually moved to Logan and helmed the Brigham Young College before furthering his own education at Harvard. He returned to Utah as president of the Agricultural College, as well as serving as an education commissioner in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Joshua H. Paul

Born in Salt Lake City, Joshua H. Paul grew up in and around agriculture. From herding cows in his childhood to working at a brewery in Salt Lake, he gained a deep appreciation of education.

He attended the University of Utah (while it was called the University of Deseret) for five years. From 1892-1894, he served as the fourth principal of Brigham Young College in Logan.

Following his tenure there, he become the second president of Utah State University. His work on the Cazier Bill laid the groundwork for Extension (which would be officially founded within two decades).

Jeremiah W. Sanborn

It took two years to get the groundwork in place for students to attend the Agricultural College of Utah (as USU was initially named) after it was established.

Originally from New Hampshire, Jeremiah W. Sanborn had gradually moved west as he made a name for himself in agriculture and higher education - including work as the farm superintendent at the New Hampshire College of Agriculture and the Mechanic Arts, and dean of the agricultural department at the University of Missouri.

He came to Utah to direct the Utah Agriculture Experiment Station, housed on campus, and became the inaugural president of the university.

Cantwell’s public work on women’s leadership

In one episode of “Future Casting with Utah State,” President Elizabeth Cantwell talked to Susan Madsen, the founding director of the Utah Women and Leadership Project and the Karen Haight Huntsman Endowed Professor of Leadership in USU’s Jon M. Huntsman School of Business.

Dr. Madsen speaks, coaches, writes and consults around topics related to developing and advancing women as leaders, and the Utah Women and Leadership Project is leading a statewide social change movement titled "A Bolder Way Forward."

Dr. Madsen and President Cantwell talk about "A Bolder Way Forward," and how all of us can cultivate women into becoming leaders.

Elizabeth Cantwell: Hello and welcome to Future Casting with Utah State. I'm Elizabeth Cantwell. I'm the president of USU and the host of this podcast.

Today, I'm going to be talking to Dr. Susan Madsen, the Karen Haight Huntsman Endowed Professor of Leadership at USU Jon M Huntsman School of Business. She's also the founding director of the Utah Women and leadership project, leading a bolder way forward, a statewide social change movement.

So we'll be talking about her books, we'll also be talking about the Utah Women and Leadership Project. Welcome, Susan.

Susan Madsen: So good to be here. Nice to meet you.

Elizabeth Cantwell: So let's get started. I mean, I have a bunch of questions for you. But I'm actually really interested in having you just give our audiences two cents, you know, in the timeframe we have of the Utah Women and Leadership Project, because I think that's kind of the cup that holds a lot of, you know, the other things I'd love to bring to the absolute podcast.

Susan Madsen: Absolutely, I actually started the Utah Women and Leadership Project in 2009. So it's been, you know, 15 years, and still lots of work to do. There's still lots of work to do, but I started it.

And it was supposed to be a one year project, the Commissioner of Higher Education had asked me to do some research on why more women in Utah, were not going to and completing college, and that was in 2009.

And then I said, Okay, two years. And then after two years of doing research around the state, people started asking me for data on other topics of women, the women in leadership and different roles.

And so I started that, and it's continued to go and it's gotten grown, based on really the needs of Utah. Our mission is to strengthen the impact of Utah girls and women.

And I moved the project from Utah Valley University to Utah State University about three and a half years ago. And so that mission, again, to strengthen the impact of Utah girls and women, we do that in three ways.

Our biggest thing that we're known for is that we do research we to relevant, trustworthy research, lots of research, we publish it in different formats. Number two, we then create resources.

So some people just don't read long documents and research, but we do curriculum, we do research based podcasts, and all of those kinds of things.

And then third, we create and, and do events and gatherings and convenience, and to really inspire educate people towards change. And that's my focus that was part of my doctoral work is organization development and change.

And I've been studying societal change for years. And we need changes here in the state of Utah.

Religion, culture, and public leadership

Cantwell asked whether it was possible to distinguish the situation in Utah from other states in the United States that have been studied and have data about them. She noted that Utah may have some unique challenges.

Susan Madsen: We do. We do. And I have studied the religious element for years. I happen to be a very strong active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, but our presence in this religion, and we're not alone, there are other states that are religious and conservative like we are.

But you see the same things. And by the way, other countries, so there's been research to look at more religious societies, more conservative societies, and what differs us from other states.

And they're definitely we tend to, let me just give you an example. For instance, everybody pretty much has a pay gap on gender. But when you look at more religious societies, that pay gap is wider.

Many of the issues, we talk about women's businesses and women's leadership roles and women in politics, you see less women in politics, and more religious and conservative societies.

So maybe this was too much to tip. But there's a piece that I think is really critical here. And that is when there's a big distinction between what women should do, quote, should and what men should do, whatever culture that might be in, you tend to see some of the same issues.

And so in our culture, we tend to say women should do these kinds of things some men should do. And that's when you see some of the power dynamics, you know, that men have significantly more power than women in the in the public space.

Elizabeth Cantwell: I do think those social climates that you're discussing, women also make different choices.

Susan Madsen: Absolutely. But so let's talk for a minute if you could sort of give us an introduction to your book series, women in leadership in higher education, this is the world we are in.

Elizabeth Cantwell: Yes. I mean, I think it's a great sort of microcosm in some ways, but I would say that because I live in it and I and I work in that and I'm a leader in it.

I'm really interested in having our listeners understand what we mean by social change. And what we mean by the sort of social constructs that that are that we're talking about here.

Susan Madsen: First one I've actually published now nine books, but two of them were specifically on women in higher education settings.

My first one was I interviewed some of the top women, higher education presidents in the country on their lifetime journey of developing leadership.

And my second one, it was an edited book on women in higher education, with many chapters from different researchers around and so it's, though both of those are older books.

But I've had such an interest in those topics, specifically around women and leadership and higher education.

Most of the time, women and men do lead differently, we have differences in our brains differences in our styles. And, and that's important to, you know, consider and look at.

But let me just tell you, like, has anything changed in the last 10 or 20 years since I've been starting on this?

I do think we are seeing more women in leadership roles. Of course, in Utah, we lag in, in women's president, most I'll tell you, I've had a lot of people in the state of Utah, though, because they see more women at the presidential level.

And we have quite a few. I mean, it's shifting all the time, we're losing one in the next little while, which is sad, because Denise Huff Dillon is a good friend of mine.

But we have seen some shifts.

But the one thing I want to say is sometimes when we see a woman at the top, we assume all of the issues are resolved.

But when we dig down into the dean level, and other levels, we see a big disparity. In fact, in the state of Utah, you will see more women and not just in our state, you will see more women as lecturers, you'll see more women as assistant professors, but it just drops off associate professor and then full professor, especially can I say, in STEM areas, non traditional areas?

You have a lot of those.

Elizabeth Cantwell: And maybe you mentioned that because well we have an and I'm an engineer, yes. And came up at a time when there were really just so few women in engineering, let alone in leadership roles.

I get asked by students a lot about being a woman in leadership. And and I usually answer it through my, my sort of personal because I'm not a scholar of women in higher education.

So I don't answer from a scholarly perspective.

Susan Madsen: I found one of my students, can I just say, she interviewed you.

Elizabeth Cantwell: Okay, yeah, she was lovely. She was lovely. I know exactly what you're talking about.

So one of the things I said to her, though, was, you know, there is an enormous body now of scholarship about how in the aggregate or in the average the brains of women in the brains of men sort of process information.

And I said, I think women are remarkably good higher ed presidents now, because the nature of the position is so yes, and the complexity has increased radically in the last 10 years, our brains are well suited to amalgamate lots of different vectors of information, and vectors of decision making.

Susan Madsen: That is so true, what we know, from MRIs and other kinds of research, there's deep, I'm not a scientist in that area.

But what we know is that men typically, you know, process separately on the right and left sides of the brain.

And when you look at the activity in the brain, women's brains are going across both of both the right and yes, all the time, so much more than men.

And so it's interesting to think back on, you know, early, early days of, you know, the hunters and gatherers, I mean, men and testosterone, honestly, I've studied hormones and some different things in the past, you know, their testosterone rises, they run and kill the buffaloes, and bring the food and women are like, let's multitask.

Let's get the children. Let's protect the children. Let's make sure we have snacks.

Elizabeth Cantwell: I have three boys.

For decades, I always had a little car in my purse.

Susan Madsen: Isn't that fun? I used to have a little car for church. You have to you do multitaskers.

So biologically, it's very fascinating. And when you shift to like today, it's fascinating to look at what men and women do differently.

And sometimes similarly, what we know from the research is that when women walk into a room, they actually scan the room differently than men.

And they look for different things. They look for body language and nonverbals and all kinds of things and and then make the Your choices.

And men typically, not all women are the same. Not all men are the same, but men will just like focus on one thing and then go for the seat they want.

And we're like, Okay, should I sit here? Or should I sit over there? Or am I wanted at this table or two, I sit in the back, and sometimes to our disadvantage, because if we are not conscious of things, and we've been socialized by what we see, we're going to sit in the back, we're going to sit on the side instead of at the table, taking up space, even the way we sit is gendered isn't that interesting?

Elizabeth Cantwell: It's, it's very interesting and I have taken pretty much every vehicle available for sort of personality assessment in like, gyms and you know, all the all the all the things that are spider if you don't know that I am statistically out on the edge for women, or on the sort of, I'm gonna find my seat have a seat at the table.

Susan Madsen: I was raised with six brothers and sisters. So I'm Anna and I was an athlete, which means there's fascinating research about Yeah, athletes, do you know that like 90, what, what is it today 92% of female fortune 500,000, fortune 1000 companies were athletes in high school or college I didn't.

Elizabeth Cantwell: But that sort of discipline to a goal. Especially the way we do with with athletes now, which is you start them when they're kind of five, six years old.

So let's let's continue down that path. I'd really like to spend a fair amount of time talking about A Bolder Way Forward and tell us what that is.

And really, I will, I will play the role of the neophyte, kind of because I think for my community, this will be a really important thing to hear about.

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